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Post by Angela on May 3, 2016 0:51:09 GMT -5
Ok I'm being over dramatic..... Indifference is more like it....
We've now had Skye for 3.5 months. So that makes him about almost 7 months old. He has always been very very friendly. Always wants to be with us. If I leave the room he'll follow me. He is still very fickle (hasn't picked his mate). He'll fly to all 3 of us and fly to Loki with no worries at all. Doesn't really stay with anybody too much I don't think. He usually follows us into the shower (doesn't get under the water) but screams for Loki to follow him lol....
Now we've had Loki for 7 weeks. He is also 7 months old. He has always been afraid of hands. He's happy to jump on my shoulder (I trimmed his wings because we were struggling to catch him, but we've not trimmed Skye's wings). If he 'drifts' to the floor and wants to get back up, he'll walk over and crawl up my leg (holding onto my pants or my skirt) and flap his way up my back but if I try to help him with my hands he turns tail and runs!!!! He mainly comes to me. Happy to eat food out of my hand but if I try to touch him he'll give me a little nip. Not hurting at all, but just letting me know he doesn't want my hand near him. He mainly only wants to be with me when I get home from work so he can get out of his cage then wants to go to Skye's cage to be with him (although Skye pretty much follows us around and flies back to check on Loki). Once he's had dinner with us then he will jump on the chair behind my back, so still near, but not really wanting to be 'on' me...
So does it make sense that is seems like Loki has bonded fully with Skye (hence the indifference with us I'm guessing???), yet Skye is still going to everyone as well as Loki.
I know this was a possibility. Of course I had hoped it wouldn't happen as we kept them in separate cages in the same room but at different ends of the room.
So I guess I'm wondering will Skye continue to get closer to Loki then become indifferent about us too? Plus is there anything I can do to 'stop' Loki bonding with Skye further??
Separate rooms isn't really possible in our house, plus I think even if I did move stuff around I believe Skye would scream his lungs out. He does that now when he can't see Loki.....
Thanks!
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Post by biteybird on May 3, 2016 2:59:41 GMT -5
I don't think I'm qualified to give advice here, as I've no experience in this kind of situation...this is a tough one. However, here's my 2 cents' worth:
If I were to hazard a guess I'd say Skye will *probably* still be fine with all his humans, if you continue to involve him in your lives consistently as you have up to this point. Unfortunately, with Loki, you don't really know what happened to him in that period between taking Skye home and then returning for him afterwards - there is probably a good reason that he's scared of hands. 7 weeks is still not that long, so I wouldn't despair just yet. Give him a bit more time to settle and perhaps you could try letting Skye and Loki out of their cages separately and see if that is better (?).
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Post by Angela on May 3, 2016 3:37:06 GMT -5
Thanks Biteybird for your 2 cents worth  It is hard to say what could have happened to him in that time... He just really hates hands. I guess I'm feeling a little concerned because it feels like we've made no progress what so ever in the last 7 weeks. It's so hard because Skye just loved us from day 1. I guess I just assumed Loki would be similar, but of course they're different birds so they won't be!! As I've said before I didn't expect them to be THAT different lol! I know I do just have to be patient (clearly not one of my strong points hahaha). Thanks again for your input. I really appreciate it. |
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Post by aaron on May 3, 2016 13:22:54 GMT -5
Sorry to hear things have been a challenge with Loki. Patience is definitely going to be really important in this situation. How often are you giving Loki treats by hand? Will he accept them? If you aren't already, I would be working with some sort of plan to systematically desensitize him to your hands. It'd probably be easier to make progress in this regard if you work with him without Skye around. Possibly not even in the same room. Less time out of the cages together (or none for a while) might help with the bonding situation. I'm really just guessing, though, as I have no experience in this kind of situation. There are some articles around on working with parrots that have a fear of hands... I only skimmed them so I'm not sure how good (or relevant) they are: www.birdchannel.com/bird-behavior-and-training/bird-behavior-issues/bird-hand-phobia.aspxwww.thebirdwhisperer.com/hands_on_techniques.htmHere is an e-book by Barbara Heidenreich (I'm not familiar with it, but Easttex often speaks highly of her and everything of hers that I have read has been great)... It's about stepping up, but it seems to address fear of hands as well: www.goodbirdinc.com/goodbirdinc.com/parrot-stepup.htmlJust keep trying things. One powerful thing you have at your disposal is Skye, who can act as a demonstration for Loki as to why good things come from hands. So if nothing else, make a point of giving Skye rubs and treats in front of Loki, and perhaps afterwards try to give Loki a treat. He's a really young bird yet and has plenty of time to grow out of this. Good luck! |
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Post by Jan and Shah on May 3, 2016 16:42:23 GMT -5
I agree with everything Aaron has said. If you want to work with Loki, take him into another room where he cant see Skye - although there will probably be a bit of contact calling so you will have to make it a fun thing (with treats) so he gets comfortable with the idea of being separated from Skye. Make sure you are not stressed or uptight - they can pick this up in a flash and you will get nowhere. Good luck - I am sure that, with time, Loki will settle down and become like Skye.
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Post by Angela on May 3, 2016 17:23:14 GMT -5
Wow Aaron you're amazing!! Thanks so much for the articles. I'll read them later as I'm just about to go to work! I have left him pretty much to himself as in I don't try to touch him with my hands for the first 7 weeks. But the last 2 nights (I might get shot for doing this as I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do or not) but I've actually grabbed him and held him for about 10 minutes. So I'll hold him with one hand and give him scritches with the other hand all the while in a very calm voice saying 'it's ok, good boy, I'm not going to hurt you' etc.. or just quietly humming. After a few minutes he seems to be calm. His little eyes even droop a little like he's going to sleep (but of course he won't). So I don't know if that's the right way to 'desensitize' him or not. I give him a couple of pumpkin seeds straight after too. He takes treats out of my hand with no problems. Thanks to you too Jan. I know it's hard as I'm not sure anybody here has had the same situation as me. But again I really do appreciate everyone's input! You are giving me hope, and of course some idea's to work with as I know nothing lol! Thanks again. |
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Post by Jan and Shah on May 3, 2016 18:12:28 GMT -5
I think different things work for different animals. I found this with Izzie - had a trainer come in who did the softly-softly routine for about an hour and a half before he gave up. Just didn't work with her. She needed something stronger so we used to run her until she realised we weren't going to give up and then she would reluctantly agree to be caught. In time we made it a fun thing so there is very little trouble with her now. Have tried various methods with her in her training but what does seem to work well is watching her (and my) body language - this seems to fill the gap perfectly so we are working together and not as separate entities.
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Post by aaron on May 4, 2016 0:18:43 GMT -5
No problem! I think you'll learn some other techniques in those articles... But if he's letting you hold him, and he seems to be enjoying it, you are probably making progress. Chances are you'll soon have him very attached to you and probably have bonding challenges next.  |
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Post by Angela on May 4, 2016 1:05:32 GMT -5
Yes well you never know! They are so complex |
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Post by Angela on May 4, 2016 2:06:23 GMT -5
Well I've just read the 2 articles you sent Aaron and they were both pretty good, but the bird whisperer one I liked the most. After reading the bird whisperer article, it seems I have been doing (well for the last 2 days) a similar approach to what he suggests as well. I hate to feel like I'm frightening him but he really does settle quickly and seems pretty content. I've only done it twice now, so I might continue this way and see how he goes. Even after doing this, he was just the same with jumping on my shoulder or crawling up my leg to get to my shoulder or even eating out of my hands, so I guess I've not made his fear worse...
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Post by aaron on May 4, 2016 7:35:58 GMT -5
Great! I think your approach could work. As long as you aren't getting serious fear responses you should be okay. Let us know how things go!
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Post by Angela on May 4, 2016 9:27:38 GMT -5
Thanks again Aaron, you're a gem |
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Post by beccilouise on May 10, 2016 16:43:39 GMT -5
I agree with what everyone else has said and, from what you've posted, it seems like Loki is afraid of hands, not of you. There is a lot to suggest that birds don't see us as complete beings, but more our heads are 'us' and the rest is a giant transportation platform (I don't know how true this is). The association of humans with hands may mean Loki is more likely to bond with Skye, but if you keep them in separate cages and play with them independently, they may both stay very tame and friendly. I don't know much about working with birds who are afraid of hands. Maya has always been very good with hands (apart from the idiot on the train who wouldn't leave her alone, despite me asking him not to touch her, and she took a chunk out of him. I told him I had no sympathy. He got what he deserved.) but they are very adaptable. I'm sure, with practise and the advice in the articles Aaron offered, he will come around good luck! |
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Post by Angela on May 11, 2016 7:03:22 GMT -5
I understand what you mean Beccilouise about being afraid of hands but not me. Weird thing is, he'll take food straight out of my fingers (even tiny bits of something). I think, maybe, possibly we've had a very small amount of success.... At dinner time (they both always want to eat off my plate not their own of course), so if he's on my shoulder I have to bend over so he can jump onto the table to eat with us. Well previously he wouldn't spend too much time on the table (think he felt a little insecure) so would want to get back on my shoulder after a few mouthfuls. My arm is of course resting on the table for him to climb back up to my shoulder. Well previously he'd jump on my arm, right up near my elbow (well away from my hands). Well last night and tonight he jumped on right at my wrist! If I put my hand up to him he still tries to give a gentle warning nip, so clearly still a loooooooooong way to go, but I think that's a little victory.... Isn't it?? Some people are so dumb. You warned him!! Yep he most definitely got what he deserved! LOL |
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Post by Angela on May 11, 2016 7:09:42 GMT -5
Oh Jan I wanted to say I've been watching his body language more like you suggested too. When I get home from work he's in his cage and he sees me and want to get out of course, so he flaps his wings like crazy (I take this to mean, get me outa here!). He leans a certain way if he wants me to take him there and if I don't do it straight away he leans and flaps his wings as if to say 'take me that way!'. If he's wanted to go back to the top of his or Skye's cage (usually to eat) but is ready to come back he climbs down onto the door of his cage and leans towards me and lifts his wings up (like he's stretching). So we are getting there I think! So cute! Also over the weekend, I was in the kitchen (where Loki's cage is, he probably didn't know I was there, but Skye could see me). Well I 'think' he was saying 'good boy' good boy'.... I think....... It sounds like he's been trying to say something for a bit but I've not caught it yet... Skye just whistles LOTS and screams heaps and once or twice he's copied my laugh and made the kiss kiss noise...
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It is hard to say what could have happened to him in that time... He just really hates hands. I guess I'm feeling a little concerned because it feels like we've made no progress what so ever in the last 7 weeks. It's so hard because Skye just loved us from day 1. I guess I just assumed Loki would be similar, but of course they're different birds so they won't be!! As I've said before I didn't expect them to be THAT different lol! I know I do just have to be patient (clearly not one of my strong points hahaha).
