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Post by siobhan on Jun 4, 2015 15:58:45 GMT -5
Bless her heart, Kathy sent me very, very specific explanations and guidelines for Rocky and I think we can do something about this. What we had is a simple communication breakdown. We were operating on Quaker and dog handling principles (sort of an amalgam of both) and Too Principles are quite different. Frankly, we were doing most everything wrong. Rocky didn't know how to explain Too Principles to us, and we didn't realize that we were trying to speak Chinese to a Mexican as it were. No wonder we were all confused. So we begin again as if it were our first day together. The good news is, Kathy said that Rocky's past doesn't matter. If he had bad homes and bad treatment, he is not going to hold that against us. Toos are quite ready to start with a clean slate and we don't have to worry about him blaming us for what other people did.
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Post by msdani1981 on Jun 4, 2015 16:03:51 GMT -5
Yay for Kathy! I'm so glad you have someone to help you!
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Post by aaron on Jun 4, 2015 17:36:20 GMT -5
That's great! Very interesting. I would be curious to know what changes you will be making, as the differences between these birds is quite interesting!
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Post by siobhan on Jun 4, 2015 21:12:06 GMT -5
For example, toos with raised crest bouncing along to a song are not "dancing." They are deciding if they like or hate what they're hearing and might well decide they hate it, at which point they are liable to bite. Badly. Raised crest in general is displaying and a likely prelude to a bite. We thought it was cute and encouraged it. Bad. Very bad.
Yelling is, as it is with Quakers, a flock call. We are expected to call back and acknowledge the awesomeness of The Too.
Toos marching around the house (since he can't fly) are not to be removed from things you don't want him to destroy and taken back to The Cage. BAD. No, you have handy a basket of interesting things that are more interesting and you are not "trading," you are offering options. If he deigns to accept this offering, you give him the thing he shows interest in, you show him you have other interesting things, and you ask if he WANTS to step up and come with you. Then you take the other interesting things along and lay your offering upon the Too Altar (otherwise known as The Cage) and with luck, he will employ his talents upon the offerings.
One must provide a Too with extensive and varied offerings because he is constantly on a quest for "materials" and if he doesn't have them offered to him, he will March until he finds them. And one must not interfere with the March for Material unless one wants to bleed.
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Post by Jan and Shah on Jun 4, 2015 23:11:50 GMT -5
That's extremely interesting. I think a bag of "offerings" may help deflect some of Shah's behaviour. Keep posting the changes that are being made as it may help others (like me)
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Post by aaron on Jun 4, 2015 23:45:00 GMT -5
Wow, fascinating. I had no idea about the crest raising being such an aggressive stance... It *can* be playful in some cases, no? Or have I really misinterpreted these birds?? I am really intrigued to hear how this continues to go.
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Post by easttex on Jun 5, 2015 4:41:09 GMT -5
Congratulations on finding a way, Siobhan! The bit about redirecting Rocky's attention rather than putting him in his cage is good advice for any parrot, and not just toos. It's a big part of force-free training.
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Post by siobhan on Jun 5, 2015 8:16:46 GMT -5
Kathy said the raised crest is always a prelude to aggression, though of course the 'too could decide against aggression. If the crest is up, you need to know he could go either way. Do not try to pet or mess with a 'too with an upraised crest. And if the wings come up and the 'too is bobbing up and down, you'd REALLY better back off. Just the crest, he's trying to decide what to do about something. Will I like this thing or will I attack it?
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Post by aaron on Jun 5, 2015 9:52:52 GMT -5
I have this great picture of my wife with an extremely sweet 'too standing up on her shoulder with wings outstretched and crest up... We really thought he was just showing off in a fun way, because this was seriously one of the sweetest, most gentle birds I've ever handled... but now I am wondering if that was a dangerous scenario. He just seemed like he was having fun... I will certainly operate differently in the future, knowing that they can end up in attack mode so easily.
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Post by siobhan on Jun 5, 2015 12:08:19 GMT -5
Kathy elaborated on the crest thing in an email today. JUST the crest doesn't HAVE to mean aggression is imminent, if the 'too is otherwise in a happy and playful mood. However, the wings out and bobbing in addition to the upraised crest is potential aggression, but not necessarily aimed at the person the 'too is with. When my brother and Rocky first met, Rocky was on my arm and at the sight of my brother, displayed BIG TIME. My brother wisely kept his distance and I spoke to Rocky soothingly, but for some reason, he considered my brother a real threat, whether to me or himself is unknown. He was no danger to me in that situation, however. I'm his human, and unlike Quakers (specifically, unlike CLYDE, LOL) when a 'too is feeling defensive or aggressive toward something or someone and is sitting on his favorite human, he's not going to bite the favorite human just because he can't reach the "threat." I actually suspect that Rocky was protecting me from my brother (silly of him, LOL, my brother and I are about as congenial as siblings can possibly be). He was still fairly new to our household and this complete stranger (to him) comes barging in like he lives there (he used to; it's the house we grew up in) carrying an object in his hand (a bottle of wine; he had come for supper) and speaking familiarly and in a slightly loud voice to HIS HUMAN. It probably looked like "Danger, Will Robinson!" to poor Rocky, who did the only thing he knew how to do, and that was show off how awesome The Too can be. My brother, like our dad did, tends to get loud in greetings and farewells in a sort of jovial, booming way that probably upset Rocky, who didn't realize my brother was just saying "hello." Plus there was the bottle of wine. Rocky is wary of things shaped like sticks in any way, including the TV trays we eat off of. He's adjusted somewhat, but the first couple of weeks, when we'd carrying the folded-up trays into the living room, Rocky would freak out and scramble to get as far away as he could. We reassured him, moved very slowly, let him see that they were just tables, and he doesn't do that now, but he still stiffens and slicks down when we bring them in.
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Post by easttex on Jun 5, 2015 12:46:19 GMT -5
unlike Quakers (specifically, unlike CLYDE, LOL) when a 'too is feeling defensive or aggressive toward something or someone and is sitting on his favorite human, he's not going to bite the favorite human just because he can't reach the "threat." Until she grew to tolerate and even grow curious about my husband, my grey would bite me whenever she could hear him, but especially when he walked into the room we were in. Who can truly see into the heart of a parrot, but I believe it was more "get off your butt and let's get out of here! Don't you see what danger we are in?!" than just biting for biting's sake. Maybe that is true for the quaker, too.
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Post by siobhan on Jun 5, 2015 13:10:19 GMT -5
Maybe it is. Clyde bites me if I am petting him and he wants me to stop or if I stop and he wants me to keep petting. He bites if I speak to one of the other birds (except Benjy; I can speak to Benjy. Usually.) He bites if he's startled. He bites if I want him to sit on my shoulder and he wants to sit on my hand. He bites me for feeding the fish, even though I have shown him the fish food and he doesn't want any. He bites me for taking a drink out of my glass. He also bites the glass. So naturally, I expected Rocky to bite under all those same circumstances and was amazed to discover that's not his M.O. at all. And Rocky gives ample warning if you do something he doesn't like, without biting first and asking questions later. He gave Bill warning the other day and Bill didn't heed it. Rocky even gives warning when he's going to poop and is cooperative about being put back on his cage before he does it.
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Post by aaron on Jun 5, 2015 13:44:44 GMT -5
Very interesting. That clarification about the crest makes more sense to me. In the case I was talking about we were all (myself, my wife, my stepdaughter) playing with the 'too, and he was getting praised for his magnificence, and he seemed to understand and would go into what seemed like a very playful display, crest up and wings out and we would all cheer for him... From what I could tell, he was having a great time.
Have you seen this video of a 'too that is throwing a tantrum because he has learned that he needs to go to the vet? The tantrum behavior, particularly in the second half of the video, is so like a human child, it's crazy... I find 'too behavior to be so fascinating.
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Post by siobhan on Jun 5, 2015 13:58:53 GMT -5
This too in the video is actually being threatening, if you ask me. He may or may not understand "vet," but probably they have to put him in a carrier to take him and it's the carrier he's objecting to.
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Post by Jan and Shah on Jun 6, 2015 2:20:22 GMT -5
I am now convinced that Shah and Clyde are twins that were separated at birth.
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