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Post by beccilouise on Jan 3, 2016 20:39:10 GMT -5
Hi all, sorry to post this but am feeling a need for some reassurance. I'm watching an American documentary at the moment about the plight of parrot populations in the wild and the number of parrots abandoned by ignorant owners. Obviously there are some people who feel that no bird should be kept in a home, and I completely understand and respect that view. I see why they think that, but I also feel that with the right care, a knowledgeable and well prepared owner, and the right environment, parrots can thrive in a human flock.
I am so terrified that Byron will become unhappy, will pluck his feathers, will damage himself and I do feel really guilty about having him in his cage sometimes, but then this guilt also spurs me to give him the best life I possible can. He has a ridiculous number of toys, a huge home cage, an open play stand, a spacious holiday cage and he is registered with two vets. He is an only bird but he lives in the same room with my bunny rabbit, and I hope her antics entertain him. (I'm a little worried what will happen when we lose her, but that's not for a while yet). I'm going to harness train him (or try to) to see if new environments help him with his enrichment. I've also ordered a toy making kit so I can make him a specialized toy. He's also out of his cage A LOT, a minimum of two to three hours a day and more often five or more.
My sister also seems to feel very strongly that I shouldn't have a bird and she's a very forceful character. But I have him now, I love him to bits, the only reason I'd give him up is the principle of it and that would only cause him further damage (and leave me absolutely bereft). I know he's a baby at the moment and adolescence will make him a little more aggressive and territorial, but I am working hard to introduce him to new people and encourage him to interact positively with my partner so that he is able to tolerate others.
I just wondered if other people ever felt guilty like this, or could offer some reassurance? I care a lot about the preservation of animals, particularly parrots because, even just having had Byron for two months, his intelligence and clownishness and affection is so lovely and astonishing. It makes me really sad that people don't think about what they're doing before they buy birds like this, and can end up causing themselves and the bird so much stress. I don't want to add to the problem, but having Byron has already taught me a lot about these birds and I feel like it's really opened my eyes to the situation they're in. People are so good at ruining things they think are beautiful and I'm really scared I'm contributing to that  |
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Post by bruce on Jan 3, 2016 23:03:29 GMT -5
Hi Beccilouise. I to have taken some flak from a person about having a bird. While I have serious reservations about keeping the most endangered of parrots as pets, and am absolutely opposed to any wild bird capture for the pet industry, QPs as hand reared pets are an exception in my opinion. First, they are an incredibly successful species (just ask the electric service providers in Southern New England about their ability to survive with brains and architectural expertise). Second, hand reared birds are very unlikely candidates for re-introduction into native habitats. It seems to me that a responsible, enriching human companion can give a QP a rewarding life. Sadly, for many QPs, people rush into acquiring one and then discover that they can be quite time intensive and loud. It sounds to me like you are giving Byron every chance to become well adjusted and loving, yet giving him the space needed for a QP to have some attitude. Thank you for this thoughtful post.
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Post by biteybird on Jan 3, 2016 23:10:51 GMT -5
I think Byron has fallen on his feet having you; he's very lucky! 
I don't know about others, but since having Bonnie I'm acutely aware of my ignorance as far as parrots are concerned and I do, indeed, feel a measure of guilt about their plight in a human-dominated world. So I try to do the best I can for her. But given my knowledge now, compared to before, I would certainly not leap in as willingly to get another parrot in future.
I'd say the problem exists because their natural environment is disappearing and because people, generally, are under-educated about parrots' needs. There are also a ton of breeders out there, some of whom are unscrupulous.
You are doing a great job with Byron and you shouldn't give him up just on principle...plus, he loves you (and you, no doubt, love him). I recommend that you trust your own judgment, which can be difficult sometimes when you have various people around you with different viewpoints trying to sway you.
I can understand why you are asking this question - it reminds me of someone's (I can't remember who) adaptation of "I think, therefore I am" into "I doubt, therefore I might be"!
Edit: I must have been typing when Bruce posted his reply, so I didn't see it until now - he makes a very good point about hand-reared parrots being unsuitable for release into the natural environment. And he's correct about people acquiring these birds without realizing the full extent of their personalities and needs. Also, some things are not able to be planned for (e.g., when we got Bonnie we couldn't anticipate that my hubby would be far more noise sensitive since having a brain meningioma removed).
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Post by Jan and Shah on Jan 4, 2016 0:38:44 GMT -5
I will only ask this - if you give Byron up, where do you think he will go? Do you think he will be rehabilitated and returned to the "wild"? Just ignore what people say. While I think it is unacceptable to take birds from the wild, hand raised birds are a different ball game. You are doing fantastically well with Byron and are working hard at giving him the best of everything and keeping him stimulated. He is in the best possible place and like Biteybird says, he is very lucky to have you.
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Post by easttex on Jan 4, 2016 6:41:50 GMT -5
I'm very ambivalent about bird-keeping. Living in this part of the US (the rural south) makes me even more so. We still have horrors like dog fighting rings, and some people think nothing of driving out here to the country to abandon dogs and cats. Way too many are not spayed or neutered and are allowed to roam. Although birds have been kept in captivity for a very long time, I believe we should get a better handle on caring for the already domesticated animals we have before going on to domesticate others. There is so much we don't understand about birds in captivity, e.g., why they pluck, it does seem a little unethical to experiment on large numbers of parrots. If I had my way, most breeders would be out of business. At the very least, there would be a licensing process to ensure they know what their doing, provide a standard of care, and know the basics of genetics. And for good measure, the already adoptable birds would be placed in good homes before breeding more. Alas, I'm not in charge of the world. Without meaning to, all of us, myself included, contribute to the problem by creating demand. But on an individual level, I don't see any humane alternative, other than what we are doing - educating ourselves so we can provide the best environment we can. Only a purist can think in terms of always or never. The way I deal with my guilt is to adopt "used" birds. That is not a judgment on what others do, though. I also donate to organizations dedicated to better bird care, like The Gabriel Foundation in Denver, and to various wildlife preservation organizations. I know this isn't much reassurance; more like empathy for your feelings. We have to deal with the situation as it is, and a little bit of guilt is probably not such a bad thing. It makes us more thoughtful about what we are doing. |
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Post by beccilouise on Jan 4, 2016 8:30:22 GMT -5
Thank you everyone for your posts. Don't worry, I am not seriously considering giving Byron up. He would suffer an enormous amount of stress as a result of being rehomed and seems already to have bonded to me so would also suffer emotional bereavement and I would be devastated at losing him. I tried very hard to educate myself before I bought him to ensure I knew what to expect. I know all baby birds are gorgeous until they hit puberty and then it's a case of 'oh, THIS is what parrots are like!' but I also know that I prepared for that before I bought Byron. I agree with you all that hand reared birds are different. Part of me also feels bad about that: they do not fit into their native society, and yet many are not given the chance to fit into a human society either. I think a lot of it is about educating people. If having Byron has taught me anything, it is that I do not 'own' him, I share a space with him and it is my responsibility to keep him first, safe, second, healthy and third (but not least important) happy.
I think a lot of the time, you don't really know what you've let yourself in for with a first bird, but then I feel that being aware of the controversy of bird keeping means I will always strive to make him the happiest bird I possibly can. And, as was pointed out, Quakers are far from endangered. I looked it up last night and they are so numerous that they are actually considered agricultural pests in large parts of South America. But so many hookbills are endangered and yet, in captivity, severely mistreated. I suppose it's the same with any animal (or indeed, children), they do not have a choice about who takes care of them, and so many people can be incredibly neglectful, cruel and unkind because they don't know what they are doing and become angry with another living thing that cannot change its nature. Thank you for your empathy and reassurance. Byron is currently sitting in a weak stream of sunlight (it's midwinter) squeaking and preening and attacking his new wooden toucan toy. Every so often he climbs up onto the top and hangs upside down of it and swings on his swing. His antics are hilarious and are reassuring me that I will always do the best for any creature in my care. Thanks again and happy new year!
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Post by aaron on Jan 4, 2016 11:26:10 GMT -5
I feel guilty about keeping an avian in a captive human environment all the time. But as you and others have pointed out, in the case of our specific birds, being in captivity is the hand they were dealt, and they would never be fit for living in a natural environment (and probably wouldn't want to). Without question, Byron is best off with you. I often daydream about Cupcake happily soaring through the sky with her parrot friends. Or getting to be a mommy parrot. She deserves that kind of instinctual fulfillment and will never have it. That makes me sad, but she does seem to be a happy creature, and I think that as parrot owners we are capable of providing them environments that at least bring them comfort, contentedness, and connectedness. But it takes a lot of work and as you know, many, many people fail at this, often because they simply haven't educated themselves on the matter before launching into it. In general, I don't really feel that humans should have ever started keeping birds as domestic pets. But, since the practice of keeping birds as pets isn't something we can change at this point, belaboring that point is kind of pointless. Now we just want to try to encourage people who are going to take the bird plunge to educate themselves and rescue rather than support the breeder industry. Personally, I'd like it if all parrot breeding stopped, at least temporarily, until people could get a handle on the vast number of mistreated and neglected birds out there. But of course, rescuing birds is harder and thus less desirable to the inexperienced bird owner. We used to talk a lot about creating a children's book series around "Cupcake the Parrot", and then making it so kids could go and see photos and learn about the real Cupcake online, but eventually we concluded that there was no way we could do this without encouraging people with children to get birds as pets, so we scrapped the idea. There's still a big part of me that wants to do it... but I think it's a fairly rare scenario where a bird is purchased for a child as a pet and things actually work out for that bird. All of this said, there is a unique wonder that comes with the relationship that we can forge with a companion parrot, and it would be a shame were humans and parrots never able to have that opportunity. I don't know what the answers are, I just know I want as many of these little birds to be happy as possible. |
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Post by julianna on Jan 4, 2016 14:35:04 GMT -5
Well.... that sure is some heavy conversation and gives us all a lot to think about. I guess I am the odd one out because so far, I have never felt guilty one bit in having Oscar as a pet. I knew he was born in a house and was raised by humans and is a very happy entertained little boy. He never has to fight for his food or for attention... he has a permanent girl friend... me.... and he will probably live a lot longer with me than in the wild. He would never survive in the wild.... so why would I have any guilt feelings.
I understand what you all of you are saying... and yes... I can understand your feelings... I cannot stand going places where I know the animals and birds are not being treated with the highest respect that they deserve. I refuse to go to these places... my heart is too weak for abuse.
Our QP's are having the most wonderful time of their lives. They are safe, fed, cleaned, talked to, played with, we are their slaves... what better life can they have?
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Post by aaron on Jan 4, 2016 14:40:27 GMT -5
I agree, Julianna. Our little ones have great lives. And I don't think guilt is a very productive emotion when it comes to being the caretaker of one of these guys either. Your perspective is probably the healthiest one  |
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Post by Jan and Shah on Jan 4, 2016 20:24:52 GMT -5
Interesting conversation everyone. Aaron, have you thought about doing a presentation for local schools on parrots? I am working on one for horses at the moment - abuse of these magnificent creatures is heart breaking so our rescue group is pulling out all the stops and organising education programmes at local schools, workshops, etc., to better inform people what they are taking on when they get a horse/pony in the hope that people realise that horses are a big responsibility. I am happy to swap ideas with you if you decide to go ahead with it.
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Post by cnyguy on Jan 4, 2016 20:48:24 GMT -5
I've been living with parrots for 46 years. If there were ever any guilt feelings, they passed a long time ago. I know I am giving any parrots who live with me a good life-- they have a comfortable home, good food and clean water and plenty of quality attention and interaction. Most parrots now kept as companions were bred in captivity, intended to be companion birds. They have never known life in the wild, and if abandoned to live in the wild would have little chance of survival. Setting a parrot free to face almost certain death is something to feel guilty about-- providing one with a good home and good life is not.
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Post by Sharyn and Mr P on Jan 4, 2016 23:00:37 GMT -5
I rescue, adopt and foster. My quaker, Mr P, was adopted from the local parrot rescue. Since then, I have started volunteering for them, doing whatever I can to help unwanted, discarded parrots. Do I think overall, that we, as humans, have done a huge disservice to all parrots by trying to domesticate them and keep them in captivity? Absolutely! Would there be something that I could've done to have prevented capturing parrots and trying to keep them as pets, I would've done it with no 2nd thoughts. Did I personally capture any birds and make them a captive, of course not. Would I ever be able to stop others from doing this, again, of course not. So, as long as there are parrots in captivity (which will probably be always) there will always be unwanted ones. When I foster, I get the pleasure of knowing that I have helped a discarded, unwanted bird, find its way to a new, forever home. And of course, Mr P , my own quaker, is treated like the royalty he thinks he is and is spoiled rotten. Not so bad for a "discard" So consider all these things, and if you are giving your FId a good home, chances are you are doing better than a lot of others. That is nothing to feel guilty about |
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Post by msdani1981 on Jan 5, 2016 2:54:38 GMT -5
One of our "oldie" members, who I don't think comes around anymore, had a saying as her signature.
"God loved birds so he made them trees. Man loved birds so he made them cages. Think about it."
In all honesty, I'm with Julianna and Gary on this one. I don't think I've felt much guilt, because our birds were bred in captivity. If wild parrots were still legally imported, then absolutely YES, I would feel immense guilt.
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Post by aaron on Jan 5, 2016 10:36:28 GMT -5
Jan, I've never thought about that... definitely something to consider. My wife has been talking about possibly giving a presentation on the Quaker nest building for my step daughter's girl scout "animal habitats" badge, but that's about as far as we've gotten.
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Post by easttex on Jan 5, 2016 11:04:44 GMT -5
It's fair to say that I don't feel any guilt at the individual bird level. I know my birds are in a better situation than they were previously. But, as a human, I don't think we do them any favors as a species by domesticating them.
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